Geissele Automatics Benelli M4 hammer in stock at Brownells

[montana_jeepn]

Just ordered mine....thought I would share since I think these have been out of stock most places.

[Lexusf]

What is benefit over stock hammer?

[Sukhoi_fan]

What is benefit over stock hammer?

A high quality 'U.S. made' part to contribute to one's 'made in the USA' parts count for those who wish to add a FL mag tube and/or C-stock (for 922(r) compliance).

[KB Fab]

Based on some early reviews (can be found using the search function) it also appears to have slightly tighter tolerances than the factory hammer. I know mine has less lateral play when installed.

[Pudmullet]

What is benefit over stock hammer?

So there probably isn't a real benefit to installing one in an H2O?

[montana_jeepn]

Your money would be better spent on ammo or other accessories. IMHO

[rokuss]

I ordered mine from geissele.com last week. They are now out of stock.

[Lexusf]

Your money would be better spent on ammo or other accessories. IMHO
i need the part towards 992r compliance. and i buy lots of other stuff too. i really need to stop spending on guns etc. my hobby has become and obsession!

[montana_jeepn]

i need the part towards 992r compliance. and i buy lots of other stuff too. i really need to stop spending on guns etc. my hobby has become and obsession!

Please let me clarify my last post.........what I meant to say is unless you require another 922r compliance piece or you just want to have one of Geissele's excellent components in your fire control group, putting the Geissele hammer in an already 922 compliant shotgun (the M4 H2O as an example) isn't required to be legal. In my case, my shotgun is an 11707 which requires another compliant part since I decided to install the collapsible stock in addition to the full length tube. I have a Geissele FCG in my FN SCAR and I have been very pleased with it.

[montana_jeepn]

i need the part towards 992r compliance. and i buy lots of other stuff too. i really need to stop spending on guns etc. my hobby has become and obsession!


Please let me clarify my post...(typing it again since my first reply was eaten..)......the new H2O M4 is supposedly fully compliant, so in my opinion (how much weight this carries varies...ha) an aftermarket hammer is not required.....for legal reasons or otherwise. I ordered the Geissele because I needed another part to be compliant once I decided to install the collapsible stock. I have a Geissele FCG in my FN Scar.....I think you will be happy with your purchase....whether you need it for compliance or not.

[Lexusf]

^^^i hope so! i ordered when it said in stock but they did not charge my card yet so I'm wondering if they are backordered. :(

[KB Fab]

Brownells has them in stock.

[rokuss]

^^^i hope so! i ordered when it said in stock but they did not charge my card yet so I'm wondering if they are backordered. :(

Geissele sent me a UPS tracking number 24 hours or so after I submitted my order.

I wonder why geissele states on their website that Carriercomp is an 'Exclusive' dealer when Brownells also carries them.

[Lexusf]

They just sent me a tracking number! :D

[TKTM]

Geissele sent me a UPS tracking number 24 hours or so after I submitted my order.

I wonder why geissele states on their website that Carriercomp is an 'Exclusive' dealer when Brownells also carries them.

My guess is that they weren't selling enough of them to keep the product viable and they didn't want to keep paying the inventory holding costs on a product that was not selling well. So, they expanded the number of vendors carrying them in-order to move them out of their inventory books, and hopefully increase demand for the product via the new outlets.

But, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, I was told Geissele did not have enough demand to keep making the M4 hammer (although they could restart IF demand increased) and there were no plans to make the other fire control parts for the same reason. For reasons unknown to me, sharing this information has created a great deal animosity with certain individuals on this site; fortunately you got your hammer while you still could.

[BigHat]

Geissele sent me a UPS tracking number 24 hours or so after I submitted my order.

I wonder why geissele states on their website that Carriercomp is an 'Exclusive' dealer when Brownells also carries them.

I suspect it was an early arrangement that wasn't been updated on the website. I'm not a Carriercomp fan so I got one directly from Geissele shortly after he made them. I guess buying four triggers from him helped. As a recall the "exclusive" agreement was only for 6 months or so, but I may not have that right.

[BM4robbins]

Brownells has them in stock.

True Sir.
Barbara at Geissele is perplexed how anyone assumed demand had waned. Since she handles billing and purchase orders that dispells the rumor as I see it.
They have been swamped and apologized for not having the resources to keep everything in stock all the time, and assured all vendors have an intact supply line and demand. Older posts would bear this out, Carriercomp's owner and Geissele collaborated on this over a year ago as I recall, so my guess is Carriercomp sells out the fastest, and everyone panics to scrounge what remains elsewhere.

Until the facts were clear I wondered if someone was pretending the end is near just to generate demand. Now it appears demand is the only reason supply is tight.
Geissele is busy... sign of the times.

[TKTM]

True Sir.
Barbara at Geissele is perplexed how anyone assumed demand had waned. Since she handles billing and purchase orders that dispells the rumor as I see it.
They have been swamped and apologized for not having the resources to keep everything in stock all the time, and assured all vendors have an intact supply line and demand. Older posts would bear this out, Carriercomp's owner and Geissele collaborated on this over a year ago as I recall, so my guess is Carriercomp sells out the fastest, and everyone panics to scrounge what remains elsewhere.

Until the facts were clear I wondered if someone was pretending the end is near just to generate demand. Now it appears demand is the only reason supply is tight.
Geissele is busy... sign of the times.

It certainly not impossible it was stated to increase demand, but it did NOT come across that way. And, one has to ask if demand is that great why did they opt out of the fire control parts too? Are you sure that 'Barbara' understood you were inquiring about a M4 shotgun and not a M4 carbine?

[KB Fab]

True Sir.
Barbara at Geissele is perplexed how anyone assumed demand had waned. Since she handles billing and purchase orders that dispells the rumor as I see it.
They have been swamped and apologized for not having the resources to keep everything in stock all the time, and assured all vendors have an intact supply line and demand. Older posts would bear this out, Carriercomp's owner and Geissele collaborated on this over a year ago as I recall, so my guess is Carriercomp sells out the fastest, and everyone panics to scrounge what remains elsewhere.

Until the facts were clear I wondered if someone was pretending the end is near just to generate demand. Now it appears demand is the only reason supply is tight.
Geissele is busy... sign of the times.
When I spoke to to Geissele, the gentleman told me that he knew of no plans to discontinue the hammer. I figure that if the person working there hasn't heard of it, I take him at his word. I mean it's not like they employ hundreds of people where information like that might easily not be forthcoming to employees. Still, some would like to use this as indicating that the hammers would be discontinued because "they" had spoken to someone who said it so blah blah blah.:rolleyes:

I sent Geissele an email this morning to let them know there is rumor on the Benelli forum about the hammers being discontinued. I have asked them if they would be willing to confirm or deny to help clear things up. I saved my letter and if and when I get a response from them, I will post both of them. For my money, I choose to believe the gentleman I spoke with originally. I had a nice conversation with him and felt like he was being straight with me.

[BM4robbins]

... And, one has to ask if demand is that great why did they opt out of the fire control parts too? Are you sure that 'Barbara' understood you were inquiring about a M4 shotgun and not a M4 carbine?

True, one had to ask, and the response was...
They opted out because there is no need or demand for a 6th, 7th, and 8th 922R comliance component for that "shotgun". They did their homework. Thats's how I knew 'Barbara' was sharp enough to know the difference between a carbine and a shotgun.

[TKTM]

True, one had to ask, and the response was...
They opted out because there is no need or demand for a 6th, 7th, and 8th 922R comliance component for that "shotgun". They did their homework. Thats's how I knew 'Barbara' was sharp enough to know the difference between a carbine and a shotgun.

Based on that, the same "homework" would tell them there is no need to make more hammers either. I suspect they will find there will be a great demand when the next "assault weapon" ban comes around.

[BigHat]

Based on that, the same "homework" would tell them there is no need to make more hammers either. I suspect they will find there will be a great demand when the next "assault weapon" ban comes around.

I've been following this thread and like some others remain at a loss trying to follow your posts, let alone put up with your attitude.
What are you trying to say? Doing one's "homework" would reveal that should one opt to put an adjustable stock on the M4 they need more than a US tube, US follower, and US handguard to be compliant. That's where the hammer comes in. It's an inexpensive part that the BATFE has listed in their list of M4 parts. So one NEEDS the hammer, no one NEEDs other FCG parts. Get it?

The "next assault weapon ban" (which is purely a BS assertion at this point) isn't germane to this discussion or the real world -- which is where most of us reside.

[TKTM]

I've been following this thread and like some others remain at a loss trying to follow your posts, let alone put up with your attitude.
What are you trying to say? Doing one's "homework" would reveal that should one opt to put an adjustable stock on the M4 they need more than a US tube, US follower, and US handguard to be compliant. That's where the hammer comes in. It's an inexpensive part that the BATFE has listed in their list of M4 parts. So one NEEDS the hammer, no one NEEDs other FCG parts. Get it?

The "next assault weapon ban" (which is purely a BS assertion at this point) isn't germane to this discussion or the real world -- which is where most of us reside.

The only "attitude" is the one you infer; I only desire to be helpful. I'm not sure why you can't follow the logic; but I will try to restate it. "Barbara" indicated there just is not enough demand for compliance parts, the hammer is a compliance part. Its that simple. Just be glad Brownell's still has them.

[BM4robbins]

The only "attitude" is the one you infer; I only desire to be helpful. I'm not sure why you can't follow the logic; but I will try to restate it. "Barbara" indicated there just is not enough demand for compliance parts, the hammer is a compliance part. Its that simple. Just be glad Brownell's still has them.
TKTM were you listening to BigHat?
Barbara inferred the beloved hammer will always have a purpose, much like a corsage that completes a prom date's gown, the rest of the fire control group is just a 3rd wheel.

[BigHat]

Precisely BM4.

And it's been refuted by others that directly asked G about the hammers that they're still going to be made!!

Talk about pole vaulting mouse turds. Geez. It's not that hard to follow is it?

[KB Fab]

TKTM were you listening to BigHat?

No he wasn't.:rolleyes: This person is nothing but a troll here, plain and simple. Do a search of his past posts/threads and you will see that most of what he has engaged in has either been starting fires or trying to fuel them. It is POINTLESS to try and reason with this person. There's more to this than we know.

[marc63]

...the beloved hammer will always have a purpose, much like a corsage that completes a prom date's gown....
You sure have a way with words.

I'd suggest the M4 is the prom date. The hi-cap tube, forearm & follower are the farkles in the corsage. If she's wearing pumps (c-stock), the hammer becomes the darn dress!! Without that (hammer), you're naked. Illegal attire for most proms:o

[TKTM]

TKTM were you listening to BigHat?
Barbara inferred the beloved hammer will always have a purpose, much like a corsage that completes a prom date's gown, the rest of the fire control group is just a 3rd wheel.

Now that's funny! I don't care who you are.

[TKTM]

Precisely BM4.

And it's been refuted by others that directly asked G about the hammers that they're still going to be made!!

Talk about pole vaulting mouse turds. Geez. It's not that hard to follow is it?

And exactly how do you know that information provided to me did not come directly from G?

[BigHat]

I know you had a conversation with someone at G. That's because I can read and you've written that. I also know that you obviously misinterpreted it.

[TKTM]

I know you had a conversation with someone at G. That's because I can read and you've written that. I also know that you obviously misinterpreted it.
Didn't anybody ever tell you bearing false witness is a no-no? The only thing I have said about the source was that they were "knowledgeable".

[BM4robbins]

The only thing I have said about the source was that they were "knowledgeable".
That's a relief.
Silly us.

In summary---"Knowledgable" source(s) indicate;

Hammer demand is unabated
Hammer supply chain has expanded
U.S. made Hammer meets a critical need. Case solved:cool:


Thanks for confirming our suspicions! For a few days there I thought we were the crazy ones.

[TKTM]

So what is the subtext here, why all the hatred for sharing information? Some of you seem to have a very weird personal vested interest, is it some sort of Cabal I am unaware of? Or could it just be the fear of being stuck with no alternative to the FFT hammer ?

[BM4robbins]

There's more to this than we know.


... Or could it just be the fear of being stuck with no alternative to the FFT hammer ?

KB... now I see what 2+2=.... The anonymous person who tried to convince everyone the Geissele hammer was dead may have tipped his hand.

[TKTM]

KB... now I see what 2+2=.... The anonymous person who tried to convince everyone the Geissele hammer was dead may have tipped his hand.

So you admit there IS some sort of card game going on; the question is: exactly what kind of card game are you guys playing that I have stumbled into?

[joshua1240]

So what is the subtext here, why all the hatred for sharing information? Some of you seem to have a very weird personal vested interest, is it some sort of Cabal I am unaware of? Or could it just be the fear of being stuck with no alternative to the FFT hammer ?

Nobody is showing hatred with you, the correct term would be frustration. You don't need to constantly defend yourself. You made a claim based off a conversation you had with a person you feel is very reputable and "in the know." What you presented from that conversation has been disproven by several other members here over the course of this thread based off their conversations with reputable persons in the trade as well as purchases members here have made.

You're not in the wrong for putting it out there, but you are in the wrong for taking any of what is said about this topic to heart when in reality....none of it affects you. You could just say "yeah, I guess my guy didn't know what he was talking about" and move on, but you are sticking to the story as if you are somehow losing face by that story not proving out.

It's ok to have theories, it's not ok to foster paranoia about weapons parts as though it were a secret cover-up, and I've come across variations of this with you in my short time here. You've admitted it yourself in another thread that you'll offer up a Half-assed theory to explain unusual circumstances.

I think this thread, as well as this topic, has run its course.

[KB Fab]

KB... now I see what 2+2=.... The anonymous person who tried to convince everyone the Geissele hammer was dead may have tipped his hand.
Maybe.....he'll never admit to it. PM me if you want the details I'm privy to.


I think this thread, as well as this topic, has run its course.

Yeah.....long ago it should have died but you can bet he won't let it.:rolleyes:

[TKTM]

joshua1240 (http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/member.php/104169-joshua1240),Thanks for the insight. There is no "face" aspect on my part, in fact I'm not affiliated in any way with anything and have nothing to gain or lose. I will take disagreement about the source of the info; 'he' does know what 'he' is talking about. The information I provide is direct insight into what is going on; that's the reason I have stuck to my guns. What I don't understand is what there is to gain by proving it wrong (or right), that I would like to find out.

[joshua1240]

joshua1240 (http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/member.php/104169-joshua1240),Thanks for the insight. There is no "face" aspect on my part, in fact I'm not affiliated in any way with anything and have nothing to gain or lose. I will take disagreement about the source of the info; 'he' does know what 'he' is talking about. The information I provide is direct insight into what is going on; that's the reason I have stuck to my guns. What I don't understand is what there is to gain by proving it wrong (or right), that I would like to find out.

There's nothing to understand. I mean I appreciate your stance but you don't have a vested interest in these weapon parts, KB has no interest, and the rest of us are just eating popcorn and watching this conversation unfold.

My only suggestion here, and take it or leave it, is to let the whole matter go the way of the dodo.


Yeah.....long ago it should have died but you can bet he won't let it.:rolleyes:

Ya know, with a statement like that you're a guilty party to this thing limping along as well. You're just as capable of not caring what he has to say as he is to not caring what you have to say on the topic. Not trying to make anyone out to be a child, but the best corollary for this is the "nu-uhh" "uh-huh" debates me and my sister used to have.

[Lexusf]

Did i mention my Geissele hammer came in today!!! :D

[BM4robbins]

I will take disagreement about the source of the info; 'he' does know what 'he' is talking about. The information I provide is direct insight into what is going on; that's the reason I have stuck to my guns.
Who is 'he'? Why the cloak and dagger aspect?

What I don't understand is what there is to gain by proving it wrong (or right), that I would like to find out.
You appear to be the ONLY one trying to prove others wrong with hypothetical scenarios. All other input appeared to be fact based of non-ambiguous origin. I apologize if my input contributed to your feeling oppressed.
I'm done.

[montana_jeepn]

Received my trigger from Brownells tonight! Now I am standing by to receive my Carrier Comp tube.

[BM4robbins]

Did i mention my Geissele hammer came in today!!! :D

Pinch me.:rolleyes:

[TKTM]

Who is 'he'? Why the cloak and dagger aspect?

You appear to be the ONLY one trying to prove others wrong with hypothetical scenarios. All other input appeared to be fact based of non-ambiguous origin. I apologize if my input contributed to your feeling oppressed.
I'm done.

Trying to prove others wrong that they are wrong about me being wrong, and that makes me the only one who is trying to prove someone wrong, LOL. I only shared information, I have no desire to prove any one wrong, or right, but it seems that is not the case with everyone. I'm just glad people are getting the parts they are needing; I don't think the same can be said of everyone else. The question I have is what is the parts Mafia on this board that I seem to have stumbled into?

[Mr. Shotgun]

Well, ladies and gents, I caved in and purchased the Geissele Hammer for my Benelli M4. Granted that I am using the sporting stock and the standard 5 round magazine, I figured that in case I move out to a free state, I can get the C-Stock, and all the additional parts to be within 922R compliance.

[rokuss]

Well, ladies and gents, I caved in and purchased the Geissele Hammer for my Benelli M4. Granted that I am using the sporting stock and the standard 5 round magazine, I figured that in case I move out to a free state, I can get the C-Stock, and all the additional parts to be within 922R compliance.

I didn't want to get the Geissele trigger either but also didn't want to get the FFT forfend that has fit issues. I got the trigger, installed it and I'm now legal, so it was worth it.

[Mr. Shotgun]

I didn't want to get the Geissele trigger either but also didn't want to get the FFT forfend that has fit issues. I got the trigger, installed it and I'm now legal, so it was worth it.


Let me know how the FFT trigger is holding up....

I think fitment on the FFT forend/handguards are hit or miss from what I have read.

[BM4robbins]

Let me know how the FFT trigger is holding up....

I think fitment on the FFT forend/handguards are hit or miss from what I have read.
Ditto. Curious how that trigger works with Geissele Hammer.

[L84Cabo]

Let me know how the FFT trigger is holding up....

I think fitment on the FFT forend/handguards are hit or miss from what I have read.

My forend was a big fat miss. And with these latest issues, I'm starting to get a clearer picture on both the quality of FFT's products and their general business philosophy. And while they seem perfectly willing to take back anything that the customer isn't happy with, I don't believe I'll be purchasing anything from them in the future.

[rokuss]

Ditto. Curious how that trigger works with Geissele Hammer.

Sorry guys, I meant to say I got the Geissele hammer.

- Geissele Hammer
- Dave's full length tube
- Dave's follower

[pamat]

Dammit, I spent an hour trying to find a place to buy the Geissele trigger.
Thought I was missing out on something.

[rokuss]

Dammit, I spent an hour trying to find a place to buy the Geissele trigger.
Thought I was missing out on something.

Sorry Pamat, my mistake!

[pamat]

no problem rokuss,
I was just kidding around.
I did do a quick look on Geissele's website thinking I may have missed something.
But, I need to check their website out every month or so anyway.

[Mr. Shotgun]

Can the Geissele Hammer work with the FFT trigger w/o any ill effects of deformations?

[Unobtanium]

So you admit there IS some sort of card game going on; the question is: exactly what kind of card game are you guys playing that I have stumbled into?


So what is the subtext here, why all the hatred for sharing information? Some of you seem to have a very weird personal vested interest, is it some sort of Cabal I am unaware of? Or could it just be the fear of being stuck with no alternative to the FFT hammer ?

There is no "game" going on. You did, however unwittingly stumble into something. I know who you are (in general terms), Thomas, and I know that you're not affiliated with FFT, or Carrier Comp. However, a lot of people on here are either in an FFT or a Carrier Comp camp, so to speak.

While Kip and Todd have spoken in the past and maintain a talking relationship, many of their fans are not so cordial. You see, SOCOMguy came to market first with a "un-neutered" magazine tube for the M1014/M4S90 shotgun. It held 7 rounds and was machined impeccably.

Then in around 2008, I believe, Kip entered the scene. Kip does a lot of things--one of them being the making of parts for the M1014/M4 shotgun. He is a former marine and liked the platform a lot, and wanted to improve it. He introduced titanium to the mix, giving us a full-length tube at roughly half the weight of the steel tube. Everyone was suspicious of his grandiose claims, but he came through and they sold like hot-cakes.

Therein lies the rub. Some people took great affront to the back-order status that his products sometimes (in the case of the tubes, often-times) maintain.

Kip sells a lot of stuff, but only has a finite amount of manpower and time. This means that his lead-times are as stated, 3-5 weeks, and I have seen them take longer (his low man-power also is why his tubes cost $50 or so less than FFT's offerings. It also allows more personal/tighter QC/QA.). However, even his critics have found his products to be beyond reproach. This means that they remain back-ordered for the most part.

Enter FFT:

They saw that Kip was onto a good thing, and opted to produce VERY SIMILAR products, as well as completely unique products (their handguards, FCG group, etc.). They have teamed with Mesa Tactical for their handguards and "someone else" who I have not bothered to ferret out for their FCG. Their first products were the Ti mag-tube, and the bolt-handle, as I understand it. The FFT mag-tube being the "bread and butter". It costs $50 more than Kip's, but you can get it...RIGHT NOW. I cannot speak for or against its workmanship as I have not bought one.

People saw this and the Kip fans took affront to it, calling it a knock-off, idea-theft, etc.

Anyway, that is what started this whole schism between CC and FFT. Like I said, though, Kip and Todd remain cordial to each other, and Kip has even described Todd to me in positive terms. However, a fan-base can be a dangerous thing when it gets riled, especially to reputations.

I personally remain a fan of Kip and his work. I have sampled products from FFT before (bolt handle) and prefer Kip's. I feel that Kip does more R&D before releasing a product. He pays more attention to detail, in my experience. Kip was all set to release his full Ti bolt handle, for example, when he then decided to make it a hybrid and change the tang to A2 steel to prevent marring and peening of the tang and the cut-outs on the end that interface with the spring/ball retainer. He made a test-run of all Ti bolt-handles, saw that this was indeed a problem--if maybe only cosmetic--and rectified it.

FFT placed their product on the market ASAP, and dealt with first issues on the cammo M4's with the paint/bolt, and second with my issue, the peening I mentioned that I documented on my FFT knob a year or so ago. They revised the product AFTER release, while Kip seems to do his very best to revise it BEFORE release. The one exception being his magazine springs. Early versions would only accept 6 rounds of SOME types of shot-shells. The Flite Control rounds, in particular. These became popular, in all fairness, after his first springs were released. He subsequently spoke with Wolff and had this rectified some years back and it has not been an issue.

Anyway, back to the hammer that sparked all of this...

Many people began dabbling with "that 1 part" that seemed missing from the M4 to make it 922r compliant in certain configurations. We had people on here planning pistons, sears, etc.

Kip spoke with Geissele and they produced the hammer, as you know. Then, some time later, FFT now has a complete FCG group. Noone to my knowledge has EVER had a problem with the Geissele hammer, however, a few people have REPORTED problems with the FFT version. Now, keep in mind, these are two fan-bases that are already a bit edgy toward each other.

Here you come into the fray, and a lot of people here do not know that you have been weighing in on things, meticulously researching them, posting on various forums, etc. since the early 2000's, regarding your firearm and watch collections. (Welcome to the Benelli world, BTW!) and they start all sorts of rumors (BM4Robbins saying you "tipped your hand", etc. and others). Some people have even opined that you are a shill affiliated with CC or FFT (both, actually, at different points in time). This is of course bad for both FFT and CC, as neither of them indulge in shill accounts, etc. of which I am aware, and indeed to remain cordial with each other outside of business. It's also not factual in the least, as you almost couldn't geographically be farther from both of them at the same time.

Anyway, I hope this has helped clear this seeming hostility up for you, and maybe some other readers as well. If that was too much for you to read:

FFT and Carriercomp are direct competitors the owners of which maintain a talking relationship. Their respective fan-bases are not always so cordial. Any swipe at either one will probably be met with suspicion from that camp, often, directed toward the other camp.

The important thing to remember here, is that we are lucky to even HAVE vendors that cater to such a "niche" firearm, and no-matter what camp you prefer, I encourage you buy their goods and be thankful that Big Brother hasn't tried harder to make your decision a lot simpler...

Does this make the mud clearer?

*I have no stock options in Carrier Comp or Freedom Fighter Tactical. I buy what I want, and my preferences dictate my spending. However, I hate to see rumors about anyone who is making quality parts for one of my favorite firearms.

[muffpirate]

Does this make the mud clearer?

Detailed as always.. Glad you're on this board. That's for sure.

[Mr. Shotgun]

My Geissele M4 hammer is sitting at the post office now waiting for me to pick it up.... cant wait to get it!

[Unobtanium]

My Geissele M4 hammer is sitting at the post office now waiting for me to pick it up.... cant wait to get it!
Brownell's still has them in stock for anyone else looking for one.

[TKTM]

Unobtanium.
Thanks for clearing that up, the info should be a "sticky" in front of any sort of product review for the muck that rains down afterward. And you are right, I am not affiliated in any way with anyone; I just saw an opportunity to ask a question; and I got a straight answer, and got a lot of flack for sharing it.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7077/7174431260_0fa7361845.jpg






There is no "game" going on. You did, however unwittingly stumble into something. I know who you are (in general terms), Thomas, and I know that you're not affiliated with FFT, or Carrier Comp. However, a lot of people on here are either in an FFT or a Carrier Comp camp, so to speak.

While Kip and Todd have spoken in the past and maintain a talking relationship, many of their fans are not so cordial. You see, SOCOMguy came to market first with a "un-neutered" magazine tube for the M1014/M4S90 shotgun. It held 7 rounds and was machined impeccably.

Then in around 2008, I believe, Kip entered the scene. Kip does a lot of things--one of them being the making of parts for the M1014/M4 shotgun. He is a former marine and liked the platform a lot, and wanted to improve it. He introduced titanium to the mix, giving us a full-length tube at roughly half the weight of the steel tube. Everyone was suspicious of his grandiose claims, but he came through and they sold like hot-cakes.

Therein lies the rub. Some people took great affront to the back-order status that his products sometimes (in the case of the tubes, often-times) maintain.

Kip sells a lot of stuff, but only has a finite amount of manpower and time. This means that his lead-times are as stated, 3-5 weeks, and I have seen them take longer (his low man-power also is why his tubes cost $50 or so less than FFT's offerings. It also allows more personal/tighter QC/QA.). However, even his critics have found his products to be beyond reproach. This means that they remain back-ordered for the most part.

Enter FFT:

They saw that Kip was onto a good thing, and opted to produce VERY SIMILAR products, as well as completely unique products (their handguards, FCG group, etc.). They have teamed with Mesa Tactical for their handguards and "someone else" who I have not bothered to ferret out for their FCG. Their first products were the Ti mag-tube, and the bolt-handle, as I understand it. The FFT mag-tube being the "bread and butter". It costs $50 more than Kip's, but you can get it...RIGHT NOW. I cannot speak for or against its workmanship as I have not bought one.

People saw this and the Kip fans took affront to it, calling it a knock-off, idea-theft, etc.

Anyway, that is what started this whole schism between CC and FFT. Like I said, though, Kip and Todd remain cordial to each other, and Kip has even described Todd to me in positive terms. However, a fan-base can be a dangerous thing when it gets riled, especially to reputations.

I personally remain a fan of Kip and his work. I have sampled products from FFT before (bolt handle) and prefer Kip's. I feel that Kip does more R&D before releasing a product. He pays more attention to detail, in my experience. Kip was all set to release his full Ti bolt handle, for example, when he then decided to make it a hybrid and change the tang to A2 steel to prevent marring and peening of the tang and the cut-outs on the end that interface with the spring/ball retainer. He made a test-run of all Ti bolt-handles, saw that this was indeed a problem--if maybe only cosmetic--and rectified it.

FFT placed their product on the market ASAP, and dealt with first issues on the cammo M4's with the paint/bolt, and second with my issue, the peening I mentioned that I documented on my FFT knob a year or so ago. They revised the product AFTER release, while Kip seems to do his very best to revise it BEFORE release. The one exception being his magazine springs. Early versions would only accept 6 rounds of SOME types of shot-shells. The Flite Control rounds, in particular. These became popular, in all fairness, after his first springs were released. He subsequently spoke with Wolff and had this rectified some years back and it has not been an issue.

Anyway, back to the hammer that sparked all of this...

Many people began dabbling with "that 1 part" that seemed missing from the M4 to make it 922r compliant in certain configurations. We had people on here planning pistons, sears, etc.

Kip spoke with Geissele and they produced the hammer, as you know. Then, some time later, FFT now has a complete FCG group. Noone to my knowledge has EVER had a problem with the Geissele hammer, however, a few people have REPORTED problems with the FFT version. Now, keep in mind, these are two fan-bases that are already a bit edgy toward each other.

Here you come into the fray, and a lot of people here do not know that you have been weighing in on things, meticulously researching them, posting on various forums, etc. since the early 2000's, regarding your firearm and watch collections. (Welcome to the Benelli world, BTW!) and they start all sorts of rumors (BM4Robbins saying you "tipped your hand", etc. and others). Some people have even opined that you are a shill affiliated with CC or FFT (both, actually, at different points in time). This is of course bad for both FFT and CC, as neither of them indulge in shill accounts, etc. of which I am aware, and indeed to remain cordial with each other outside of business. It's also not factual in the least, as you almost couldn't geographically be farther from both of them at the same time.

Anyway, I hope this has helped clear this seeming hostility up for you, and maybe some other readers as well. If that was too much for you to read:

FFT and Carriercomp are direct competitors the owners of which maintain a talking relationship. Their respective fan-bases are not always so cordial. Any swipe at either one will probably be met with suspicion from that camp, often, directed toward the other camp.

The important thing to remember here, is that we are lucky to even HAVE vendors that cater to such a "niche" firearm, and no-matter what camp you prefer, I encourage you buy their goods and be thankful that Big Brother hasn't tried harder to make your decision a lot simpler...

Does this make the mud clearer?

*I have no stock options in Carrier Comp or Freedom Fighter Tactical. I buy what I want, and my preferences dictate my spending. However, I hate to see rumors about anyone who is making quality parts for one of my favorite firearms.

[StrangerDanger]

Can the Geissele Hammer work with the FFT trigger w/o any ill effects of deformations?

I've found no issues with this combination.

[BM4robbins]

... I am not affiliated in any way with anyonehttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7077/7174431260_0fa7361845.jpg
In order to be in position to take this picture, you had to be affiliated with someone, unless it is pirated from a differnt tktm. Last I heard, Shot Show attendance requires affiliations:confused:

[thomjb]

Anyone with an ffl can attend
even me:)

[Mr. Shotgun]

I've found no issues with this combination.

Ok great! I should be ordering one sometime soon!

[KB Fab]

There is no "game" going on. You did, however unwittingly stumble into something. I know who you are (in general terms), Thomas, and I know that you're not affiliated with FFT, or Carrier Comp. However, a lot of people on here are either in an FFT or a Carrier Comp camp, so to speak.

While Kip and Todd have spoken in the past and maintain a talking relationship, many of their fans are not so cordial. You see, SOCOMguy came to market first with a "un-neutered" magazine tube for the M1014/M4S90 shotgun. It held 7 rounds and was machined impeccably.

Then in around 2008, I believe, Kip entered the scene. Kip does a lot of things--one of them being the making of parts for the M1014/M4 shotgun. He is a former marine and liked the platform a lot, and wanted to improve it. He introduced titanium to the mix, giving us a full-length tube at roughly half the weight of the steel tube. Everyone was suspicious of his grandiose claims, but he came through and they sold like hot-cakes.

Therein lies the rub. Some people took great affront to the back-order status that his products sometimes (in the case of the tubes, often-times) maintain.

Kip sells a lot of stuff, but only has a finite amount of manpower and time. This means that his lead-times are as stated, 3-5 weeks, and I have seen them take longer (his low man-power also is why his tubes cost $50 or so less than FFT's offerings. It also allows more personal/tighter QC/QA.). However, even his critics have found his products to be beyond reproach. This means that they remain back-ordered for the most part.

Enter FFT:

They saw that Kip was onto a good thing, and opted to produce VERY SIMILAR products, as well as completely unique products (their handguards, FCG group, etc.). They have teamed with Mesa Tactical for their handguards and "someone else" who I have not bothered to ferret out for their FCG. Their first products were the Ti mag-tube, and the bolt-handle, as I understand it. The FFT mag-tube being the "bread and butter". It costs $50 more than Kip's, but you can get it...RIGHT NOW. I cannot speak for or against its workmanship as I have not bought one.

People saw this and the Kip fans took affront to it, calling it a knock-off, idea-theft, etc.

Anyway, that is what started this whole schism between CC and FFT. Like I said, though, Kip and Todd remain cordial to each other, and Kip has even described Todd to me in positive terms. However, a fan-base can be a dangerous thing when it gets riled, especially to reputations.

I personally remain a fan of Kip and his work. I have sampled products from FFT before (bolt handle) and prefer Kip's. I feel that Kip does more R&D before releasing a product. He pays more attention to detail, in my experience. Kip was all set to release his full Ti bolt handle, for example, when he then decided to make it a hybrid and change the tang to A2 steel to prevent marring and peening of the tang and the cut-outs on the end that interface with the spring/ball retainer. He made a test-run of all Ti bolt-handles, saw that this was indeed a problem--if maybe only cosmetic--and rectified it.

FFT placed their product on the market ASAP, and dealt with first issues on the cammo M4's with the paint/bolt, and second with my issue, the peening I mentioned that I documented on my FFT knob a year or so ago. They revised the product AFTER release, while Kip seems to do his very best to revise it BEFORE release. The one exception being his magazine springs. Early versions would only accept 6 rounds of SOME types of shot-shells. The Flite Control rounds, in particular. These became popular, in all fairness, after his first springs were released. He subsequently spoke with Wolff and had this rectified some years back and it has not been an issue.

Anyway, back to the hammer that sparked all of this...

Many people began dabbling with "that 1 part" that seemed missing from the M4 to make it 922r compliant in certain configurations. We had people on here planning pistons, sears, etc.

Kip spoke with Geissele and they produced the hammer, as you know. Then, some time later, FFT now has a complete FCG group. Noone to my knowledge has EVER had a problem with the Geissele hammer, however, a few people have REPORTED problems with the FFT version. Now, keep in mind, these are two fan-bases that are already a bit edgy toward each other.

Here you come into the fray, and a lot of people here do not know that you have been weighing in on things, meticulously researching them, posting on various forums, etc. since the early 2000's, regarding your firearm and watch collections. (Welcome to the Benelli world, BTW!) and they start all sorts of rumors (BM4Robbins saying you "tipped your hand", etc. and others). Some people have even opined that you are a shill affiliated with CC or FFT (both, actually, at different points in time). This is of course bad for both FFT and CC, as neither of them indulge in shill accounts, etc. of which I am aware, and indeed to remain cordial with each other outside of business. It's also not factual in the least, as you almost couldn't geographically be farther from both of them at the same time.

Anyway, I hope this has helped clear this seeming hostility up for you, and maybe some other readers as well. If that was too much for you to read:

FFT and Carriercomp are direct competitors the owners of which maintain a talking relationship. Their respective fan-bases are not always so cordial. Any swipe at either one will probably be met with suspicion from that camp, often, directed toward the other camp.

The important thing to remember here, is that we are lucky to even HAVE vendors that cater to such a "niche" firearm, and no-matter what camp you prefer, I encourage you buy their goods and be thankful that Big Brother hasn't tried harder to make your decision a lot simpler...

Does this make the mud clearer?

*I have no stock options in Carrier Comp or Freedom Fighter Tactical. I buy what I want, and my preferences dictate my spending. However, I hate to see rumors about anyone who is making quality parts for one of my favorite firearms.
Uno, thanks for stepping into the fray and posting this. Some of "us" need to take a lesson.:mad: Myself included.:o

[BM4robbins]

Uno, thanks for stepping into the fray and posting this. Some of "us" need to take a lesson.:mad: Myself included.:o

Ditto. Thanks Uno.
It is always hard to put two and two together with contrary information from mystery sources. Left me with more questions than answers. In January I asked a Geissele rep about the Benelli hammer and was told Benelli didn't make an M4. Laughed HARD! Moments like that can often explain how TKTM might have been misinformed. Been there. "Left hand speaking for the right hand" happens. It's all clear now.

[KB Fab]

FY!.....Geiselle is showing the hammer in stock.

[TKTM]

FY!.....Geiselle is showing the hammer in stock.

That would be a nice little reprieve; but when I just checked, it showed them out of stock