BP Revolver Choices

[Tom1939]

Greetings,

I'm getting close to buying a revolver. I've narrowed it down to three: Ruger Old Army, Uberti 1858 New Army, and Walker 1847. Plusses and minuses

Ruger: - One needs a permit to purchase the Ruger in Michigan. - Higher price. + Great quality.

1858: +Low price. + No permit needed. Finish looked good, but I'm unsure of quality.

Walker: + Great looks and history. OK price. - A fellow I spoke to at the gun store has one and has some difficulty with the loading lever.

Anyone want to add insights?

TIA

Tom

[oldwildlifer]

First I wonder what the thinking is about MI with the Ruger?? The Walker....me I wouldn't want to carry a 4 pound 9 ounce revolver around(my Ruger 44 mag, 4 5/8" bbl is lighter than that)and the troubles with the Walker(i've read)is the loading lever drops after shots from the recoil(looks like you have an attached hand grip). The 1858 looks to me like a number one choice and I like the Remington feature of the top strap for added strength. I had one black powder revolver and it cost about $65 in Hillsdale, Michigan when I got it about 1980 and I have written in my records that it was a "Navy" model. Shooting it was fun, but I didn't like the clean up mess after(I'm into cartridge handguns). I guess it depends what you are going to do with it as to which model you get.

[Gatofeo]

The Walker is a very poor choice for the beginner. It has its faults, including the dropping-lever syndrome that ties it up. Remember, Sam Colt quickly improved the Walker and created the Dragoons for the same purpose.
The Walker's sights are atrocious. A narrow slit in the hammer nose and a glaring, brass bead for a front sight. And, they are not adjustable or easily reworked.
The original Colt cap and ball revolvers shot high. They were intended to augment a rifle somewhat, at battlefield ranges. Most original Colts and reproductions of same shoot high at 25 yards.
This can vary from 6 to 12 inches high. All that can be done to the Walker to make it shoot to point of aim at 25 yards is to add metal to the front sight and file a slightly deeper rear sight notch in the hammer.
Or, you can live with this and shoot by pointing, as many original users did.
Forget the Walker, it has too many problems. Most beginners end up selling theirs, discouraged by not hitting what they aim at or at having to aim below the target.

The Ruger Old Army is likely the finest and strongest percussion revolver ever made. However, it's not historically accurate. To some, like myself, that matters. It's a great gun, no doubt, but I like my cap and balls to look like those of yesteryear.

The Remington 1858 is your best choice of the three listed. It's a bit heavy, and doesn't point as well as its contemporary Colts (1851, 1860 and 1862 models) but it's a good gun.
Fouling causes it to bind sooner than the Colt, owing to its smaller diameter cylinder pin. However, it's more amenable to using conical bullets than the Colt, if you wish.
Not much point in using conicals at the range, though. They're not as accurate and they generally cost more.
Many cite the added strength of the Remington's topstrap as a decided advantage over the open-top design of the Colt. I think the point is moot, when you're talking black powder (or equivalent propellant) pressures.
Both the Colt and the Remington design, if used with nothing BUT black powder or its approved substitutes (Pyrodex, 777, Clear Shot, etc.) will handily digest any load you can put in it, and still get the ball seated below flush of the cylinder face.

Myself, I own both Colt and Remington designs. The Remington is easier at the target range, owing to its readily seen (and filed, if necessary) front sight. The Colt is better-balanced and points much better.
For beginners, I think the Remington design is best.
STAY AWAY from brass-framed revolvers. That brass frame can't take the pounding that a steel frame shrugs off. They wear more quickly, especially if used with full loads such as 40 grs. of FFFG under a lead ball.
Contrary to what the loading books say, forget .451 inch balls. Instead, use .454 inch balls. They create a slightly wider bearing surface when rammed into the chamber. This means a better seal in the bore and more of an area for the rifling to grip.
I use nothing but .454 inch balls in my .44 revolvers. If you decide to go with the Ruger, you'll need to buy .457 inch balls.
Black powder is usually more accurate in these guns. I use Goex FFFG but you can use FFG if it's all you can find. If black powder is difficult to find, try Pyrodex P or 777, FFFG grade.
Always wear hearing and eye protection when shooting these old beasts. They have quite a blast and fragments of the caps or ball can hit you or bystanders.
NEVER let anyone stand to the side when you fire it. Particles can fly out between the barrel and cylinder and cause injury.
Also, most of the country is quite dry right now. Don't shoot over dry grass or other natural combustibles. Firearms can easily start a fire.
Have fun with whatever you choose. Don't be afraid to return here with questions. None of us was born with this knowledge, we had to learn along the way.

[sab]

Hi Can anyone help me, Iam very new to black powder shooting and have a few questions.
Ihave a .36 1851 navy and am not sure what type of wads to use and also what size balls to buy can anybody help.

[oldwildlifer]

You didn't say what model you had, but I have some information on the Navy Arms Colt Pocket Police Revolver in .36 cal(8 inch barrel). It uses a projectile .375 with a weight of 80 grains, made by Hornady(round ball). They used both FFFg and Pyrodex (P) for loading. They did not use wads, they used RIG over the ball(I have used Crisco shortning). Loads were from 10 FFFg to 23 FFFg "MEASURED" (not weight) for muzzle velocities of from 433 FPS to 915 FPS. With Pyrodex (P) it was a "MEASURED" (not weight) of 10 P to 24 P for muzzle velocities of from 439 FPS to 954 FPS. The measured loads are done with a power measure set to a certin amount. The book (The Gun Digest Black Power Loading Manual, by Sam Fadala) says that the 15 FFFg had the best accuracy. I'm not much of a black powder handgun shooter (I do shoot a Big Bore Mountain CVA in .54 cal., love that thing!) and mainly shoot cartrige handguns. Hope this gives you a start though. Again, these loads were for this particular revolver....so if you do try them, START at the LOWEST LOAD and work up if you desire. Lots of times the lower load is more fun to shoot(I fire very few hot loads in my 44 magnum, instead I like to load meduim or lower (read FUN loads) and enjoy the sport. Yours for the Outdoors.....

[Gatofeo]

For best accuracy in the .36-caliber revolvers, use a ball of .380 inch, not .375 inch.
When a ball is rammed into the chamber, it creates a narrow band around its equator which the rifling grips.
On the .375 balls, depending on the chamber, this may be a very narrow area for the rifling to grip. Using a larger ball gives more of an area for the rifling to purchase.
The larger ball also helps prevent balls from working forward under recoil, though I've never had that problem even with .375 balls.
But I urge you to use .380 inch balls if you can find them. If not, use the .375 inch balls if it's all you can find.
As for wads, here in the States many shooters use a thick felt "Wonder Wad" sold by a company named Ox-Yoke.
There in England, they may not be available. In this case, you'll need to find an old felt hat. You want stiff felt, as is used in cowboy and fedora hats.
I find old cowboy hats at the local thrift store.
Alternatively, look for felt stripping, sold as insulation around windows. It comes in a roll and may be found at hardware stores.
Be wary, though. Many felts are partly or wholly polyester, which is nothing more than plastic. This "felt" will leave deposits of plastic in your bore. Don't use it.
The felt must be 100 percent wool felt. A hat-maker may give or sell you scraps.
After obtaining the felt, you'll need to punch out wads. Use a 3/8 inch hole punch for .36 caliber and a .45-caliber hole punch for the .44 cap and ball revolvers.
The 3/8 punch will be easier to find than the .45 caliber punch. You may have to special order the .45 caliber punch. I ordered mine from Buffalo Arms, in Montana.
A 7/16 punch is too small. A 15/32 punch would be right but I don't know if such a beast is made.
The 1851 Navy holds more powder than the Colt Pocket Police revolver. They are both .36 caliber.
The most you can get in a Navy, with wad, is about 24 grains of FFFG black powder or its equivalent by volume.
Without a wad, you can get about 27 grains of FFFG in the Navy and still have room for the ball but it's a tight fit.
I'd suggest you use the greased wad between the powder and ball and use 22 grains of FFFG. This is still a good, stout load and will show you what the cowboys, lawmen and soldiers carried.
By the way, the Colt 1851 Navy was a popular sidearm with British officers during the Crimean War of the 1850s.
Sam Colt had a factory in London for about five years and marked each gun that left the plant as being made in London. These London Colts bring a premium today.
The pamphlet included with each Colt 1851 Navy sold recommended a charge of 3/4 of a drachm (20 grains) with either the conical bullet or lead ball.
Other than this, there never really was a standard load for the 1851 Navy or other Colt cap and ball revolvers.
In a 1975 American Rifleman article, an author dissected a variety of original paper cartridges in .36 and .44 caliber. He found an enormous variance in the weight of the charge and bullet in both calibers.
Frankly, 20 grains of powder in the 1851 Navy is bordering on a light target load. I regularly shoot 24 grains of FFFG black powder in mine, with a greased wad between ball and powder.
Even the 27 grain load, without wad, in the Navy is not a fearsome thing to shoot. Recoil is mild, almost to the point of not being felt. There's plenty of smoke and flame but very little recoil.
ALWAYS wear eye and ear protection when shooting cap and ball guns. They're noisy, and cap fragments or other ejecta have been known to hit people in the face. NEVER let anyone stand to the side when firing these guns, they throw a lot of fouling, hot gases and sometimes lead shavings to the side, from the gap between the barrel and cylinder.
I have a Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy I bought new about 1982. It's very well made and accurate.
If you use a greased felt wad between the ball and powder, there is no need to put grease over the ball.
I am not one of those who believes that flashover occurs at the mouth of the chambers, but I believe it occurs at the rear, among nipples.
I've experienced three multiple firings with the same gun back in the 1970s. In each instance, the balls were well covered with grease. This is why I believe that flashover occured at the rear of the cylinder.
My composition has been rather scattered but I hope this helps. I'll post a long treatise I wrote on cap and ball revolvers in here, from which you can get more information.
Adios from the "ugly cat!"

[sab]

Thanks very much ugly cat very useful info in language I can understand. Much obliged,
sab.

[Uncle Jaque]

One of my bad habits is to "bell" or chamfer the mouth of the cylenders out ever so slightly and polish them.

Using a .458 or even a .461 ball in my Uberti Remington, the oversized ball (remember to keep the sprue UP if using home rolled cast ball) thus "swage" into the cyl. mouth instead of just shaving off a lead ring.

It seems to enhance accuracy for me.

When casting, BTW, use only DEAD SOFT lead.

I like the Remington for a number of reasons - one being the rear sight on the top of the frame instead of the hammer nose. Another being you can pull the cylender without having to pound the cly. pin wedge out with a piece of wood or lead as is often the case with the Colts.

With any of them, slather the axis pin up with grease, lard, or bacon fat to keep the fouling from binding it up.

For Black Powder clean up I like a mix of "BALLISTOL" (A German non-petroleum product) and water. This "Moose Milk" formula is apparently very popular with the Cowboy Action crowd as well.

Some Cabelleiros just break the revolver down and put the component parts in the dish washer.
Don't let you Wife catch you doing that!

Retired tooth brushes and pipe cleaner wires come in handy in cleaning guns; keep 'em handy.

Have fun!

[gunman42782]

Why would you have to have a permit to purchase the Ruger Old Army in MI?

Anyway, I can tell you from personal experience that the Old Army is the way to go if you are looking for the slickest, most durable, black powder revolver on the face of the earth.

The Remington copy is a distant second.

Any of the Colt clones I have had were unsatisfactory.

[rollinolin]

hello, I have just bought a 3rd mod. dragoon(.44) and ive only fired a few #10 caps by CCI. I have had every one of 'em fall off into the action of the gun ! I looked into this website to try and find a fix. ALSO Iam worried about the size/fit of the barrel wedge. does anyone know if this part is SUPPOSED to stick out on the left side about 1/2 inch ?? it seems that this part regulates the cylinder/barrel space or cylinder/frame space as if I try to tap it in to far the gun is hard to ****. MY owners manuel states the powder charge for target loads is: 22 grains, and a hunting load is @%. this seems like a smaller load than was stated earlier. Does anyone know how much pyrodex P i SHOULD USE ?. any help much welcome thanks!

[rollinolin]

P.S.

[rollinolin]

P.S.

I didnt use those keystrokes(****) I tried to say "cycle the hammer" USING ANOTHER TERM.
I guess the censor wont let us use the word that starts with "C" and the "hunting load is really 25 grains(my poor typing skills to blame.

[oldwildlifer]

Try "thumbing back the hammer"......lol as opposed to "wangering" it.

[rollinolin]

Thank you oldwildifer, when I e-mailed uberti about my wedge problem,they replied to check the opening in the barrel for burrs. I did and that isnt the problem. Uberti sent a copy of my E-mail to a co. called "VTI GUN PARTS" and they suggested I go back to the place I bought it ( SECOND AMENDMENT SPORTS) and ask them to fix it,or buy a new wedge from VTI. I am not sure any one @ SAS really knows much about BP revolvers,they sold me a box of balls that were smaller than I am supposed to use per Uberti. When I took them back to exchange they said they didnt have the correct (.454) SIZE. I wound up going to another place here in Bakersfield for projectiles. If anyone can answer my questions about wedge position in the pistol please let me know. Also, Iam going to the big city of L.A. next weekend. Does anyone know of a good gun store in the anahiem area ?.